[lopsa-discuss] I.T. Holy wars

[Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)]

I'm trying to think up topics that IT folks (devops, and software developers, etc) sometimes feel extremely passionate about, even to the point of sometimes fanatical extremism. Examples might be vi vs emacs, linux vs windows, mac vs windows, drupal vs wordpress, java vs C#, and so on.

Can you name some controversial topics that tend to start flame wars?

I think it will be interesting to see which things are "hot" topics, but part of the purpose is to gauge other peoples' ability to be cooperative. If you ask them to name some topic they feel passionate about, and ask them to take sides on something controversial, you can identify people who are prone to extreme positions and uncompromising, versus people who are able to see both sides and be respectful of the people on the other side...

I'm basically formulating a technical-based behavioral interview question.

[Jason Barbier]

Postgres vs MySQL
NoSQL vs SQL databases
Micro vs Monolithic kernels

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Post by Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)
I'm trying to think up topics that IT folks (devops, and software
developers, etc) sometimes feel extremely passionate about, even to
the point of sometimes fanatical extremism. Examples might be vi vs
emacs, linux vs windows, mac vs windows, drupal vs wordpress, java vs
C#, and so on.>
Can you name some controversial topics that tend to start flame wars?>
I think it will be interesting to see which things are "hot" topics,
but part of the purpose is to gauge other peoples' ability to be
cooperative. If you ask them to name some topic they feel passionate
about, and ask them to take sides on something controversial, you can
identify people who are prone to extreme positions and uncompromising,
versus people who are able to see both sides and be respectful of the
people on the other side...>
I'm basically formulating a technical-based behavioral interview
question.>
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[Adam Levin]

Perl vs. Python
Tabs vs. spaces!

-Adam

Post by Jason Barbier
Postgres vs MySQL
NoSQL vs SQL databases
Micro vs Monolithic kernels
---
GPG: 0x40B8FA1D72EF0D89 (https://keybase.io/kusuriya)
I'm trying to think up topics that IT folks (devops, and software
developers, etc) sometimes feel extremely passionate about, even to the
point of sometimes fanatical extremism. Examples might be vi vs emacs,
linux vs windows, mac vs windows, drupal vs wordpress, java vs C#, and so
on.
Can you name some controversial topics that tend to start flame wars?
I think it will be interesting to see which things are "hot" topics, but
part of the purpose is to gauge other peoples' ability to be cooperative.
If you ask them to name some topic they feel passionate about, and ask them
to take sides on something controversial, you can identify people who are
prone to extreme positions and uncompromising, versus people who are able
to see both sides and be respectful of the people on the other side...
I'm basically formulating a technical-based behavioral interview question.
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[Yves Eynard]

One space after a sentence as opposed to two.
Cloud vs on-prem
open vs closed source
CISC vs RISC
clearly defined requirements vs fix in production



-
Yves Eynard

Post by Adam Levin
Perl vs. Python
Tabs vs. spaces!
-Adam

Post by Jason Barbier
Postgres vs MySQL
NoSQL vs SQL databases
Micro vs Monolithic kernels
---
GPG: 0x40B8FA1D72EF0D89 (https://keybase.io/kusuriya)

Post by Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)
I'm trying to think up topics that IT folks (devops, and software developers, etc) sometimes feel extremely passionate about, even to the point of sometimes fanatical extremism. Examples might be vi vs emacs, linux vs windows, mac vs windows, drupal vs wordpress, java vs C#, and so on.
Can you name some controversial topics that tend to start flame wars?
I think it will be interesting to see which things are "hot" topics, but part of the purpose is to gauge other peoples' ability to be cooperative. If you ask them to name some topic they feel passionate about, and ask them to take sides on something controversial, you can identify people who are prone to extreme positions and uncompromising, versus people who are able to see both sides and be respectful of the people on the other side...
I'm basically formulating a technical-based behavioral interview question.
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[Steve VanDevender]

Post by Yves Eynard
CISC vs RISC

That might lead to a Meltdown among the CISC advocates. Not that I want
that Spectre hanging over them.

[John Stoffel]

Post by Yves Eynard
CISC vs RISC

Is this even a thing anymore? It's more Intel vs AMD vs Sparc vs
Itanium vs Power...

Steve> That might lead to a Meltdown among the CISC advocates. Not
Steve> that I want that Spectre hanging over them.

*groan*

[Steve VanDevender]

Post by John Stoffel

Post by Yves Eynard
CISC vs RISC

Is this even a thing anymore? It's more Intel vs AMD vs Sparc vs
Itanium vs Power...

Intel and AMD processors basically are RISC now, as in modern
implementations x86 and x86-64 opcodes are internally translated to a
RISC-like execution engine.

Itanium is dead.
https://itpeernetwork.intel.com/evolution-mission-critical-computing/
"...the 9700 series will be the last Intel Itanium processor."

And SPARC is basically dead now too, given how Oracle is handling the
remains of Sun and Solaris.

I am really interested in the new RISC-V architecture, an open-source
processor design that is very elegant: https://riscv.org

Post by John Stoffel
Steve> That might lead to a Meltdown among the CISC advocates. Not
Steve> that I want that Spectre hanging over them.
*groan*

[Matt Finnigan]

CISC vs RISC isn't a current argument though, right? Use what works best
for your use case (mobile or embedded vs everything else), and the compiler
will output the code.

https://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?doc_id=1327016

Post by Yves Eynard
One space after a sentence as opposed to two.
Cloud vs on-prem
open vs closed source
CISC vs RISC
clearly defined requirements vs fix in production
-
Yves Eynard
Perl vs. Python
Tabs vs. spaces!
-Adam

Post by Jason Barbier
Postgres vs MySQL
NoSQL vs SQL databases
Micro vs Monolithic kernels
---
GPG: 0x40B8FA1D72EF0D89 (https://keybase.io/kusuriya)
I'm trying to think up topics that IT folks (devops, and software
developers, etc) sometimes feel extremely passionate about, even to the
point of sometimes fanatical extremism. Examples might be vi vs emacs,
linux vs windows, mac vs windows, drupal vs wordpress, java vs C#, and so
on.
Can you name some controversial topics that tend to start flame wars?
I think it will be interesting to see which things are "hot" topics, but
part of the purpose is to gauge other peoples' ability to be cooperative.
If you ask them to name some topic they feel passionate about, and ask them
to take sides on something controversial, you can identify people who are
prone to extreme positions and uncompromising, versus people who are able
to see both sides and be respectful of the people on the other side...
I'm basically formulating a technical-based behavioral interview question.
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[Romeo]

Replying on top of the email vs replying at the bottom of the email vs inline replying
Just replying to the list vs CC'ing the original sender
"Open source" vs "Free software"
Coffee vs Tea

Post by Yves Eynard
One space after a sentence as opposed to two.
Cloud vs on-prem
open vs closed source
CISC vs RISC
clearly defined requirements vs fix in production
-
Yves Eynard

Post by Adam Levin
Perl vs. Python
Tabs vs. spaces!
-Adam

On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 1:04 PM, Jason Barbier
Postgres vs MySQL
NoSQL vs SQL databases
Micro vs Monolithic kernels
---
GPG: 0x40B8FA1D72EF0D89 (https://keybase.io/kusuriya)

On Tue, Jan 23, 2018, at 10:01 AM, Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)
I'm trying to think up topics that IT folks (devops, and software

developers, etc) sometimes feel extremely passionate about, even to the
point of sometimes fanatical extremism. Examples might be vi vs emacs,
linux vs windows, mac vs windows, drupal vs wordpress, java vs C#, and
so on.

Post by Adam Levin

Can you name some controversial topics that tend to start flame

wars?

Post by Adam Levin

I think it will be interesting to see which things are "hot"

topics, but part of the purpose is to gauge other peoples' ability to
be cooperative. If you ask them to name some topic they feel passionate
about, and ask them to take sides on something controversial, you can
identify people who are prone to extreme positions and uncompromising,
versus people who are able to see both sides and be respectful of the
people on the other side...

Post by Adam Levin

I'm basically formulating a technical-based behavioral interview

question.

Post by Adam Levin

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Post by Adam Levin

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[Yves Dorfsman]

Post by Romeo
Replying on top of the email vs replying at the bottom of the email vs inline replying

Keep in mind that most people under the age of 25 won't even know what you are
talking about, they've never seen anything but top posting, in fact the tools
they use (gmail, outlook) is kinda forcing their hands to top post.
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[Dennis]

AWS vs GCP
Docker vs Rkt
Lyft vs Uber
Chef vs Puppet vs Ansible vs fabric vs Salt vs why are you even using CM
these days?
BSD vs anyone
cats vs dogs
Test driven development vs doing actual work
Bitcoin vs Bitcoin Cash
iOS vs Android
Slack vs IRC

Post by Romeo

Post by Romeo
Replying on top of the email vs replying at the bottom of the email vs

inline

Post by Romeo
replying

Keep in mind that most people under the age of 25 won't even know what you are
talking about, they've never seen anything but top posting, in fact the tools
they use (gmail, outlook) is kinda forcing their hands to top post.
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[Romeo]

What kind of monster puts two spaces after a sentence?

Post by Yves Eynard
One space after a sentence as opposed to two.
Cloud vs on-prem
open vs closed source
CISC vs RISC
clearly defined requirements vs fix in production
-
Yves Eynard

Post by Adam Levin
Perl vs. Python
Tabs vs. spaces!
-Adam

On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 1:04 PM, Jason Barbier
Postgres vs MySQL
NoSQL vs SQL databases
Micro vs Monolithic kernels
---
GPG: 0x40B8FA1D72EF0D89 (https://keybase.io/kusuriya)

On Tue, Jan 23, 2018, at 10:01 AM, Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)
I'm trying to think up topics that IT folks (devops, and software

developers, etc) sometimes feel extremely passionate about, even to the
point of sometimes fanatical extremism. Examples might be vi vs emacs,
linux vs windows, mac vs windows, drupal vs wordpress, java vs C#, and
so on.

Post by Adam Levin

Can you name some controversial topics that tend to start flame

wars?

Post by Adam Levin

I think it will be interesting to see which things are "hot"

topics, but part of the purpose is to gauge other peoples' ability to
be cooperative. If you ask them to name some topic they feel passionate
about, and ask them to take sides on something controversial, you can
identify people who are prone to extreme positions and uncompromising,
versus people who are able to see both sides and be respectful of the
people on the other side...

Post by Adam Levin

I'm basically formulating a technical-based behavioral interview

question.

Post by Adam Levin

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[Tracy Reed]

Post by Romeo
What kind of monster puts two spaces after a sentence?

A very old one. ;)
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[Jesse Becker]

Jesse Becker

On Jan 23, 2018 2:04 PM, "Romeo" <***@romeo.tech> wrote:

What kind of monster puts two spaces after a sentence?


Just about anyone who learned to type on a typewriter.

I've been docked a point on a paper for not doing so.

[Chase Hoffman]

I'm younger than the typewriter era, but I was taught to use two spaces
after a sentence. I've also gotten criticized by an employer for doing so.

Post by Jesse Becker
Jesse Becker
What kind of monster puts two spaces after a sentence?
Just about anyone who learned to type on a typewriter.
I've been docked a point on a paper for not doing so.
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[Yves Dorfsman]

I grew up in a country where English wasn't the main language and where there
was no such rule, but learned about it when trying to write an RFC:

https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc7322.txt

"the fundamental and unique style conventions and editorial policies currently
in use for the RFC Series."



"When a sentence ended by a period is immediately followed by
another sentence, there must be two blank spaces after the period."
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[Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)]

Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 9:59 PM
I'm younger than the typewriter era, but I was taught to use two spaces after
a sentence.  I've also gotten criticized by an employer for doing so.

Notice my old-style bottom posting with quoted text. ;-)

This is pretty off-topic, but I think it's interesting: A was raised and taught to use double spaces, but a couple of years ago, I was convinced to change. My friend is a publisher, and she was clearly taking one side in a holy war, ranting to me, and I defended the double space. The traditional argument is that "in horrible monospace fonts, you needed the double spaces to break apart sentences, but we don't need that anymore, because in modern fonts, the font rendering system fits characters and spaces together dynamically, so if you use the double space, you're undermining all the effort of the ... I forget what they're called... font experts." You can counter this with "that's ridiculous. Even in modern fonts, when you put a space at the end of a sentence, it's exactly the same size as the one in the middle of the sentence. So if you acknowledge the old monospace font required double spaces to break apart sentences, the same argument applies to modern fonts." However, I wasn't getting any traction with that argument, and I used this one: "When you read, you silently 'hear' the voice of the writer inside your head, talking. Space is time. People pause between sentences, so the double spaces create a more naturally flowing and less robotic voice." She countered with: "Maybe if you're a child reader. Anyone who reads a lot (and everyone nowadays does), you read faster, you take in whole phrases and sentences, or whole lines at a time, you skim. You've never met the writer or heard their voice. You're not reading to hear the writer's voice and imagine vocal tone, which doesn't carry across *any* written medium. If you think you're improving tone by including double spaces, you're fooling yourself, and only yourself. What everyone else sees with the double spaces is 'some stubborn old person who fails to adapt with the times.'" Aside from insulting my reading skills, it's weird, basically comes down to this: There is stuff that's worth fighting over, and this isn't one of them. I caved for exactly the reason she said - going with the flow just because. Social norms. Similar to *anything* else, where you cling to an old style that has gone out of fashion. (I still think it's ridiculous to dock you points off your grade).

Now extremely off topic: When people sneeze, I like to say "Bless you. Even though it doesn't work." They sneeze again. "See? Didn't work."

[Romeo]

Post by Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)
The traditional argument is that "in horrible monospace fonts, you needed the double spaces to break apart sentences, but we don't need that anymore, because in modern fonts, the font rendering system fits characters and spaces together dynamically, so if you use the double space, you're undermining all the effort of the ... I forget what they're called... font experts." You can counter this with "that's ridiculous. Even in modern fonts, when you put a space at the end of a sentence, it's exactly the same size as the one in the middle of the sentence. So if you acknowledge the old monospace font required double spaces to break apart sentences, the same argument applies to modern fonts." However, I wasn't getting any traction with that argument, and I used this one: "When you read, you silently 'hear' the voice of the writer inside your head, talking. Space is time. People pause between sentences, so the double spaces create a more naturally flowing and less robotic voice."

Are periods a recent invention? Isn't that what they're there for?

Post by Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)

Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 9:59 PM
I'm younger than the typewriter era, but I was taught to use two

spaces after

a sentence.  I've also gotten criticized by an employer for doing so.

Notice my old-style bottom posting with quoted text. ;-)
This is pretty off-topic, but I think it's interesting: A was raised
and taught to use double spaces, but a couple of years ago, I was
convinced to change. My friend is a publisher, and she was clearly
taking one side in a holy war, ranting to me, and I defended the double
space. The traditional argument is that "in horrible monospace fonts,
you needed the double spaces to break apart sentences, but we don't
need that anymore, because in modern fonts, the font rendering system
fits characters and spaces together dynamically, so if you use the
double space, you're undermining all the effort of the ... I forget
what they're called... font experts." You can counter this with "that's
ridiculous. Even in modern fonts, when you put a space at the end of a
sentence, it's exactly the same size as the one in the middle of the
sentence. So if you acknowledge the old monospace font required double
spaces to break apart sentences, the same argument applies to modern
fonts." However, I wasn't getting any traction with that argument, and
I used this one: "When you read, you silently 'hear' the voice of the
writer inside your head, talking. Space is time. People pause between
sentences, so the double spaces create a more naturally flowing and
less robotic voice." She countered with: "Maybe if you're a child
reader. Anyone who reads a lot (and everyone nowadays does), you read
faster, you take in whole phrases and sentences, or whole lines at a
time, you skim. You've never met the writer or heard their voice.
You're not reading to hear the writer's voice and imagine vocal tone,
which doesn't carry across *any* written medium. If you think you're
improving tone by including double spaces, you're fooling yourself, and
only yourself. What everyone else sees with the double spaces is 'some
stubborn old person who fails to adapt with the times.'" Aside from
There is stuff that's worth fighting over, and this isn't one of them.
I caved for exactly the reason she said - going with the flow just
because. Social norms. Similar to *anything* else, where you cling to
an old style that has gone out of fashion. (I still think it's
ridiculous to dock you points off your grade).
Now extremely off topic: When people sneeze, I like to say "Bless you.
Even though it doesn't work." They sneeze again. "See? Didn't work."
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[Adam Moskowitz]

(how many spaces after the end of a sentence)

Typewriters came after typesetting.

Having worked in the (photo-) typesetting business for a while (before
most of you were born), I was taught that for text being set "ragged
right" (that is, variable length lines), there should be an "en space"
between each pair of words and an "em space" between the punctuation
mark at the end of one sentence ("." or "?") and the first word of the
next sentence. An "en space" is the width of the letter "n" in the font
being used, an "em space" is the width of the letter "m".

Typewriters produce ragged right text. Typewriters use a monospaced font
so there is only one space; I can't remember if it's "en" or "em" or
something else. Putting two fixed-width spaces between sentences was the
only option for approximating the "en" v. "em" spacing of typesetting.

Using different spaces in ragged right text set in a proportional font
is just dandy. Monospaced fonts are so damned ugly that I can't bring
myself to care how many spaces there are after the end of a sentence.

Adam

P.S. - If you care how your text looks, use a proportional font and
software that will use en and em spaces appropriately. Of course,
this still leaves aside the issue of rivers, lakes, holes, horrible
spacing due to full justification, and probably some other offenses
I've long since forgotten.

[Adam Levin]

Wait! Has nobody mentioned the Oxford comma yet? :)

-Adam

Post by Adam Moskowitz

(how many spaces after the end of a sentence)

Typewriters came after typesetting.
Having worked in the (photo-) typesetting business for a while (before
most of you were born), I was taught that for text being set "ragged
right" (that is, variable length lines), there should be an "en space"
between each pair of words and an "em space" between the punctuation
mark at the end of one sentence ("." or "?") and the first word of the
next sentence. An "en space" is the width of the letter "n" in the font
being used, an "em space" is the width of the letter "m".
Typewriters produce ragged right text. Typewriters use a monospaced font
so there is only one space; I can't remember if it's "en" or "em" or
something else. Putting two fixed-width spaces between sentences was the
only option for approximating the "en" v. "em" spacing of typesetting.
Using different spaces in ragged right text set in a proportional font
is just dandy. Monospaced fonts are so damned ugly that I can't bring
myself to care how many spaces there are after the end of a sentence.
Adam
P.S. - If you care how your text looks, use a proportional font and
software that will use en and em spaces appropriately. Of course,
this still leaves aside the issue of rivers, lakes, holes, horrible
spacing due to full justification, and probably some other offenses
I've long since forgotten.
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[Dan Ritter]

Post by Adam Levin
Wait! Has nobody mentioned the Oxford comma yet? :)

"Nor Logical versus American quoting."

-dsr-

[Marcos Alano]

International metric system vs. imperial metric system.
Celsius vs. Fahrenheit.

Post by Dan Ritter

Post by Adam Levin
Wait! Has nobody mentioned the Oxford comma yet? :)

"Nor Logical versus American quoting."
-dsr-
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[Matt Lawrence]

The metric system is an evil plot by the French!

Post by Marcos Alano
International metric system vs. imperial metric system.
Celsius vs. Fahrenheit.

Post by Dan Ritter

Post by Adam Levin
Wait! Has nobody mentioned the Oxford comma yet? :)

"Nor Logical versus American quoting."
-dsr-
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[Marcos Alano]

Why someone would use something like "inches" or "feets" if you have
nicer options like "centimeters" and "meters"?

[Douglas Hall]

Post by Marcos Alano
Why someone would use something like "inches" or "feets" if you have
nicer options like "centimeters" and "meters"?

Centimetres and metres vs centimeters and meters.

[Romeo]

Because "inches" and "feet" as measurements are measurements for humans.
"centimeters" and "meters" are measurements for robots

Stay hydrated

Post by Marcos Alano
Why someone would use something like "inches" or "feets" if you have
nicer options like "centimeters" and "meters"?

[Yves Dorfsman]

Post by Matt Lawrence
The metric system is an evil plot by the French!

The root cause of the "issue" is really the proliferation of 0 and the decimal
system, so you should blame the Indians for their discovery/formalization of
it, or the Arabs to bring it to the middle-East, north-Africa and eventually
Europe and the rest of the world.

The real question is why are the 3 countries(1) using multi-base measurement
systems(2) use the decimal system rather than the roman number or something as
esoteric and as hard to use as their measurement systems‽


(1):
http://www.joeydevilla.com/2008/08/13/countries-that-dont-use-the-metric-system/
(2): 12 inch in foot, 3 foot in a yard, 1760 yard in a mile!
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[Trey Darley]

Post by Yves Dorfsman
The root cause of the "issue" is really the proliferation of 0 and
the decimal system, so you should blame the Indians for their
discovery/formalization of it, or the Arabs to bring it to the
middle-East, north-Africa and eventually Europe and the rest of the
world.
The real question is why are the 3 countries(1) using multi-base
measurement systems(2) use the decimal system rather than the roman
number or something as esoteric and as hard to use as their
measurement systems“

Nobody yet mentioned the persistence of the Sumerian sexagesimal
number system [0].

Down with Babylonian hegemony, say I! ^_^

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexagesimal#Modern_usage
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++--------------------------------------------------------------------------++
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[m***@plfc.org.uk]

Counting from zero vs one.

Camel vs pascal vs snake vs kebab case etc.
(Especially where a language/context doesn’t dictate...)

Post by Trey Darley

Post by Yves Dorfsman
The root cause of the "issue" is really the proliferation of 0 and
the decimal system, so you should blame the Indians for their
discovery/formalization of it, or the Arabs to bring it to the
middle-East, north-Africa and eventually Europe and the rest of the
world.
The real question is why are the 3 countries(1) using multi-base
measurement systems(2) use the decimal system rather than the roman
number or something as esoteric and as hard to use as their
measurement systems‽

Nobody yet mentioned the persistence of the Sumerian sexagesimal
number system [0].
Down with Babylonian hegemony, say I! ^_^
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexagesimal#Modern_usage
--
Cheers,
Trey
++--------------------------------------------------------------------------++
Kingfisher Operations, sprl
gpg fingerprint: 85F3 5F54 4A2A B4CD 33C4 5B9B B30D DD6E 62C8 6C1D
++--------------------------------------------------------------------------++
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[Doug Hughes]

Post by m***@plfc.org.uk
Counting from zero vs one.

oh god yes!

numbering the first machine as machine0000..
"hey guys, I just installed the 0th machine!". just because it's easier
and makes sense to have the 1st element of an array start at relative
address 0, doesn't mean we should count physical things that way.
"hey, I just bought my 0th car!" "wheel #3 has a flat"

[Joseph Kern]

Timezone data.

Post by Doug Hughes

Post by m***@plfc.org.uk
Counting from zero vs one.

oh god yes!
numbering the first machine as machine0000..
"hey guys, I just installed the 0th machine!". just because it's easier
and makes sense to have the 1st element of an array start at relative
address 0, doesn't mean we should count physical things that way.
"hey, I just bought my 0th car!" "wheel #3 has a flat"
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[Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)]

Post by Joseph Kern
Timezone data.

Timezone data? You mean, like GMT vs local time? Or 24-hour vs am/pm format?

[Aleksey Tsalolikhin]

Post by Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)
I'm basically formulating a technical-based behavioral interview question

How did this go?

Want any more? =)


Mac vs PC
Android vs iPhone

[Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)]

Post by Aleksey Tsalolikhin
How did this go?

The effective way to ask this question goes approximately as follows:

Print out a list such as the following:

Suggested topics:

Mac vs Windows
One space vs Two spaces at the end of sentences
Systemd vs sysv init vs anything else
iOS vs Android
vi vs emacs
puppet / ansible / chef / salt / cfengine / other
postgresql vs mysql
perl vs python
tabs vs spaces

Preferably create your own list using topics that are relevant in the position that you're hiring for.

Ask them to choose sides on a topic they feel passionately about. Give them the list for ideas, and invite them to pick a topic that isn't on the list. And then just listen to what they have to say.

Good candidates will react in some reasonable way, trying to show off knowledge, and maybe even enthusiasm, maybe even choosing something based on relevance in the current context. Those types of answers deserve bonus points, but they're all acceptable unless... The "red flag" behavior is to go all extreme and combative, using divisive language and so on. Losing track of the goals they're actually working together with you to accomplish and getting sucked down into some topic they feel internal resentment over and so on. Such behavior probably indicates poor ability to work well with others on a team.

In the current hiring cycle, all of our candidates reacted well to the above line of questioning, but I've certainly worked with problem employees in the past, who I think we might have been able to avoid, if we only thought of something like this before.

[Aleksey Tsalolikhin]

Nice! That's a fun way of peeling back the social facade to see what lies
beneath. =)

On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 6:52 AM, Edward Ned Harvey (lopser) <

Post by Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)

Post by Aleksey Tsalolikhin
How did this go?

Mac vs Windows
One space vs Two spaces at the end of sentences
Systemd vs sysv init vs anything else
iOS vs Android
vi vs emacs
puppet / ansible / chef / salt / cfengine / other
postgresql vs mysql
perl vs python
tabs vs spaces
Preferably create your own list using topics that are relevant in the
position that you're hiring for.
Ask them to choose sides on a topic they feel passionately about. Give
them the list for ideas, and invite them to pick a topic that isn't on the
list. And then just listen to what they have to say.
Good candidates will react in some reasonable way, trying to show off
knowledge, and maybe even enthusiasm, maybe even choosing something based
on relevance in the current context. Those types of answers deserve bonus
points, but they're all acceptable unless... The "red flag" behavior is to
go all extreme and combative, using divisive language and so on. Losing
track of the goals they're actually working together with you to accomplish
and getting sucked down into some topic they feel internal resentment over
and so on. Such behavior probably indicates poor ability to work well with
others on a team.
In the current hiring cycle, all of our candidates reacted well to the
above line of questioning, but I've certainly worked with problem employees
in the past, who I think we might have been able to avoid, if we only
thought of something like this before.

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[Romeo]

Post by Marcos Alano
Celsius vs. Fahrenheit.

Don't you mean Communism vs. Freedom?

[David R. Linn]

Post by Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)
Now extremely off topic: When people sneeze, I like to say "Bless you. Even though it doesn't work." They sneeze again. "See? Didn't work."

"Bless you" vs. "Gesundheit"
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[Mark McCullough]

I thought I'd also point out that manuscript format for many writing
submissions still requires the correct two spaces after a sentence.
Unfortunately, even the recent versions of MS Word do not correctly
insert an extra large space after a sentence and before the next
sentence unless you do the double space for every version I try. I've
had "W" characters that start a sentence routinely look like they were
crowding the previous sentence if I didn't put in the double space.

(Learned on a typewriter -- sort of, then really learned on an older
computer with fixed width fonts, and two spaces were still mandatory
even when variable width fonts were used.)

Post by Jesse Becker
Jesse Becker
What kind of monster puts two spaces after a sentence?
Just about anyone who learned to type on a typewriter.
I've been docked a point on a paper for not doing so.
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[Skylar Thompson]

I suppose we should add to the list:

* TeX vs LaTeX vs $WORD_PROCESSOR
* Computer Modern vs $OTHER_FONT

Skylar

Post by Mark McCullough
I thought I'd also point out that manuscript format for many writing
submissions still requires the correct two spaces after a sentence.
Unfortunately, even the recent versions of MS Word do not correctly insert
an extra large space after a sentence and before the next sentence unless
you do the double space for every version I try. I've had "W" characters
that start a sentence routinely look like they were crowding the previous
sentence if I didn't put in the double space.
(Learned on a typewriter -- sort of, then really learned on an older
computer with fixed width fonts, and two spaces were still mandatory even
when variable width fonts were used.)

Post by Jesse Becker
Jesse Becker
What kind of monster puts two spaces after a sentence?
Just about anyone who learned to type on a typewriter.
I've been docked a point on a paper for not doing so.
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[Romeo]

fixed width vs variable width

Stay hydrated

Post by Skylar Thompson
* TeX vs LaTeX vs $WORD_PROCESSOR
* Computer Modern vs $OTHER_FONT
Skylar
I thought I'd also point out that manuscript format for many writing
submissions still requires the correct two spaces after a sentence.
Unfortunately, even the recent versions of MS Word do not correctly
insert an extra large space after a sentence and before the next
sentence unless you do the double space for every version I try. 
I've had "W" characters that start a sentence routinely look like
they were crowding the previous sentence if I didn't put in the
double space.
(Learned on a typewriter -- sort of, then really learned on an older
computer with fixed width fonts, and two spaces were still mandatory
even when variable width fonts were used.)
Jesse Becker
    What kind of monster puts two spaces after a sentence?
Just about anyone who learned to type on a typewriter.
I've been docked a point on a paper for not doing so.
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[Stephen Potter]

Oxford versus Serial Comma
Standalone/thick client versus Web Interface
Containers vs VMs
SOA vs microservices
JSON vs XML vs YAML
ITAM vs CMDB

[Matt Lawrence]

Ruby!

Post by Adam Levin
Perl vs. Python
Tabs vs. spaces!
-Adam
Postgres vs MySQL
NoSQL vs SQL databases
Micro vs Monolithic kernels
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Post by Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)
I'm trying to think up topics that IT folks (devops, and software
developers, etc) sometimes feel extremely passionate about, even
to the point of sometimes fanatical extremism. Examples might be
vi vs emacs, linux vs windows, mac vs windows, drupal vs
wordpress, java vs C#, and so on.
Can you name some controversial topics that tend to start flame wars?
I think it will be interesting to see which things are "hot"
topics, but part of the purpose is to gauge other peoples'
ability to be cooperative. If you ask them to name some topic
they feel passionate about, and ask them to take sides on
something controversial, you can identify people who are prone to
extreme positions and uncompromising, versus people who are able
to see both sides and be respectful of the people on the other side...
I'm basically formulating a technical-based behavioral interview question.
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[m***@plfc.org.uk]

C is the only real language. Every *real* programmer knows that. ;-P

</joke>

Agile vs waterfall (well, Agile generally vs any other option) has been a heated debate in several teams I’ve seen. Followed closely by git vs svn, Cisco vs (insert alternative here) and at late: Azure vs AWS...

Oh and in-house vs off-the-shelf. (Did someone already mention that one?)

Sent from my iPhone

Post by Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)
Ruby!

Post by Adam Levin
Perl vs. Python
Tabs vs. spaces!
-Adam

Post by Jason Barbier
Postgres vs MySQL
NoSQL vs SQL databases
Micro vs Monolithic kernels
---
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I'm trying to think up topics that IT folks (devops, and software developers, etc) sometimes feel extremely passionate about, even to the point of sometimes fanatical extremism. Examples might be vi vs emacs, linux vs windows, mac vs windows, drupal vs wordpress, java vs C#, and so on.
Can you name some controversial topics that tend to start flame wars?
I think it will be interesting to see which things are "hot" topics, but part of the purpose is to gauge other peoples' ability to be cooperative. If you ask them to name some topic they feel passionate about, and ask them to take sides on something controversial, you can identify people who are prone to extreme positions and uncompromising, versus people who are able to see both sides and be respectful of the people on the other side...
I'm basically formulating a technical-based behavioral interview question.
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[Allan West]

Post by Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)
Ruby!

I was just chuckling along, but that's a trigger word:
new languages vs supported (by others in the org) languages

replying inline vs top/bottom posting
big on-call rotation vs small on-call rotation
(with respective large and small problem pools)
buy vs build
vertical teams vs tiered teams
auto-incorrect vs copy editing
parenthetical reference vs footnotes
thin crust vs Sicilian

Post by Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)

Post by Adam Levin
Perl vs. Python
Tabs vs. spaces!
-Adam
Postgres vs MySQL
NoSQL vs SQL databases
Micro vs Monolithic kernels
---
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Post by Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)
I'm trying to think up topics that IT folks (devops, and software
developers, etc) sometimes feel extremely passionate about, even
to the point of sometimes fanatical extremism. Examples might be
vi vs emacs, linux vs windows, mac vs windows, drupal vs
wordpress, java vs C#, and so on.
 
Can you name some controversial topics that tend to start flame wars?
 
I think it will be interesting to see which things are "hot"
topics, but part of the purpose is to gauge other peoples'
ability to be cooperative. If you ask them to name some topic
they feel passionate about, and ask them to take sides on
something controversial, you can identify people who are prone to
extreme positions and uncompromising, versus people who are able
to see both sides and be respectful of the people on the other side...
 
I'm basically formulating a technical-based behavioral interview question.
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[Chase Hoffman]

How has vi vs emacs not come up yet?

Post by Allan West

Post by Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)
Ruby!

new languages vs supported (by others in the org) languages
replying inline vs top/bottom posting
big on-call rotation vs small on-call rotation
(with respective large and small problem pools)
buy vs build
vertical teams vs tiered teams
auto-incorrect vs copy editing
parenthetical reference vs footnotes
thin crust vs Sicilian

Post by Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)

Post by Adam Levin
Perl vs. Python
Tabs vs. spaces!
-Adam
Postgres vs MySQL
NoSQL vs SQL databases
Micro vs Monolithic kernels
---
GPG: 0x40B8FA1D72EF0D89 (https://keybase.io/kusuriya)

Post by Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)
I'm trying to think up topics that IT folks (devops, and software
developers, etc) sometimes feel extremely passionate about, even
to the point of sometimes fanatical extremism. Examples might be
vi vs emacs, linux vs windows, mac vs windows, drupal vs
wordpress, java vs C#, and so on.
Can you name some controversial topics that tend to start flame

wars?

Post by Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)

Post by Adam Levin

Post by Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)
I think it will be interesting to see which things are "hot"
topics, but part of the purpose is to gauge other peoples'
ability to be cooperative. If you ask them to name some topic
they feel passionate about, and ask them to take sides on
something controversial, you can identify people who are prone to
extreme positions and uncompromising, versus people who are able
to see both sides and be respectful of the people on the other side...
I'm basically formulating a technical-based behavioral interview question.
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Post by Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)

Post by Adam Levin
http://lopsa.org/
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Post by Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)
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[l***@gmail.com]

Twas in the original question as an example.

Adam

Post by Chase Hoffman
How has vi vs emacs not come up yet?

Post by Allan West

Post by Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)
Ruby!

new languages vs supported (by others in the org) languages
replying inline vs top/bottom posting
big on-call rotation vs small on-call rotation
(with respective large and small problem pools)
buy vs build
vertical teams vs tiered teams
auto-incorrect vs copy editing
parenthetical reference vs footnotes
thin crust vs Sicilian

Post by Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)

Post by Adam Levin
Perl vs. Python
Tabs vs. spaces!
-Adam
Postgres vs MySQL
NoSQL vs SQL databases
Micro vs Monolithic kernels
---
GPG: 0x40B8FA1D72EF0D89 (https://keybase.io/kusuriya)

Post by Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)
I'm trying to think up topics that IT folks (devops, and software
developers, etc) sometimes feel extremely passionate about, even
to the point of sometimes fanatical extremism. Examples might be
vi vs emacs, linux vs windows, mac vs windows, drupal vs
wordpress, java vs C#, and so on.
Can you name some controversial topics that tend to start flame wars?
I think it will be interesting to see which things are "hot"
topics, but part of the purpose is to gauge other peoples'
ability to be cooperative. If you ask them to name some topic
they feel passionate about, and ask them to take sides on
something controversial, you can identify people who are prone to
extreme positions and uncompromising, versus people who are able
to see both sides and be respectful of the people on the other side...
I'm basically formulating a technical-based behavioral interview
question.
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[Guus Snijders]

How has vi vs emacs not come up yet?


That one's gone;
vim won and got replaced by Google docs/office 365 ;).


Mvg, Guus Snijders

[David R. Linn]

Ruby!

Ha!

Coffee vs. Cola
ITIL vs. KISS

[Matt Lawrence]

Post by David R. Linn
Ha!
Coffee vs. Cola
ITIL vs. KISS

Iced Tea!

-- Matt

[Tom Perrine]

And from the darker ages

Post by Matt Lawrence

Post by David R. Linn
Ha!
Coffee vs. Cola
ITIL vs. KISS

Iced Tea!
-- Matt
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[Tom Perrine]

BSD vs System V
32 vs 36 . (anyone else remember this one?)

VAX vs SPARC

Post by Matt Lawrence

Post by David R. Linn
Ha!
Coffee vs. Cola
ITIL vs. KISS

Iced Tea!
-- Matt
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[Steve VanDevender]

Post by Tom Perrine
32 vs 36 . (anyone else remember this one?)

36 bits forever!

[David R. Linn]

Post by Steve VanDevender

Post by Tom Perrine
32 vs 36 . (anyone else remember this one?)

36 bits forever!

JRST BITS36
--
David R. Linn

[Brent Chapman]

Post by Tom Perrine
VAX vs SPARC

Wasn't it more like Alpha vs SPARC? VAX would have been vs. MC68k,
wouldn't it?

-Brent

[Yves Dorfsman]

Post by Jason Barbier
Postgres vs MySQL

This is one of the best, because modern MySQL/MariaDB has done away with a lot
(most?) arguments against MySQL, and people's reaction when you point this out
is a real eye-opener (eg: "yeah, whatever, it sucks!").
--
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gpg: 4096R/32B0F416

[Yves Dorfsman]

- Follow their own stylistic preferences vs standard (PEP8/gofmt/rustfmt).
- 12 hour vs 24 hour system (this shouldn't really an option, there are 24 hours in a day, a "12 hour system" shouldn't be an option)
- yy/dd/mm vs yyyy/mm/dd vs dd/mm/yyyy (that shouldn't be an option either... ISO 8601 or nothing!)
- Windows vs OSX vs gnome
- cursor-follow-mouse vs click-to-focus (for people who know what those are)
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gpg: 4096R/32B0F416

[Brad Beyenhof]

Post by Yves Dorfsman
- cursor-follow-mouse vs click-to-focus (for people who know what those are)

And click-through, but that's just for corner-case UI weirdos.

https://daringfireball.net/2003/05/much_ado_about_click-through
https://daringfireball.net/2003/05/the_problems_with_clickthrough
--
Brad Beyenhof . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . http://augmentedfourth.com
Without education, we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking
educated people seriously.
~ G.K. Chesterton, author (1874-1936)

[Christina Plummer]

Has really no one mentioned:
SysV init vs. systemd
Android vs iPhone

Post by Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)
I'm trying to think up topics that IT folks (devops, and software developers, etc) sometimes feel extremely passionate about, even to the point of sometimes fanatical extremism. Examples might be vi vs emacs, linux vs windows, mac vs windows, drupal vs wordpress, java vs C#, and so on.
Can you name some controversial topics that tend to start flame wars?
I think it will be interesting to see which things are "hot" topics, but part of the purpose is to gauge other peoples' ability to be cooperative. If you ask them to name some topic they feel passionate about, and ask them to take sides on something controversial, you can identify people who are prone to extreme positions and uncompromising, versus people who are able to see both sides and be respectful of the people on the other side...
I'm basically formulating a technical-based behavioral interview question.
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[Doug Breshears]

GUI vs Command Line

On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 10:01 AM, Edward Ned Harvey (lopser) <

Post by Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)
I'm trying to think up topics that IT folks (devops, and software
developers, etc) sometimes feel extremely passionate about, even to the
point of sometimes fanatical extremism. Examples might be vi vs emacs,
linux vs windows, mac vs windows, drupal vs wordpress, java vs C#, and so
on.
Can you name some controversial topics that tend to start flame wars?
I think it will be interesting to see which things are "hot" topics, but
part of the purpose is to gauge other peoples' ability to be cooperative.
If you ask them to name some topic they feel passionate about, and ask them
to take sides on something controversial, you can identify people who are
prone to extreme positions and uncompromising, versus people who are able
to see both sides and be respectful of the people on the other side...
I'm basically formulating a technical-based behavioral interview question.
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Doug Breshears
JSH Farms Inc.
541-571-3332

[Chase Hoffman]

Itanium vs x86_64

Post by Doug Breshears
GUI vs Command Line
On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 10:01 AM, Edward Ned Harvey (lopser) <

Post by Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)
I'm trying to think up topics that IT folks (devops, and software
developers, etc) sometimes feel extremely passionate about, even to the
point of sometimes fanatical extremism. Examples might be vi vs emacs,
linux vs windows, mac vs windows, drupal vs wordpress, java vs C#, and so
on.
Can you name some controversial topics that tend to start flame wars?
I think it will be interesting to see which things are "hot" topics, but
part of the purpose is to gauge other peoples' ability to be cooperative.
If you ask them to name some topic they feel passionate about, and ask them
to take sides on something controversial, you can identify people who are
prone to extreme positions and uncompromising, versus people who are able
to see both sides and be respectful of the people on the other side...
I'm basically formulating a technical-based behavioral interview question.
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--
Doug Breshears
JSH Farms Inc.
541-571-3332 <(541)%20571-3332>
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[John Stoffel]

Doug> GUI vs Command Line

I want to argue that this one goes in waves... and looking at how MS
PowerShell is coming up in the world argues that the CLI (or maybe a
more scriptable/automatable) interface is a necessity once you get
past a certain point. Otherwise your mouse hand just falls off.

Which just came up, where I had to rename 900+ snapshots across 15
volumes so that they wouldn't automatically get nuked due to an issue
at $WORK. I was able to get this done with just some scripting under
30 minutes. The GUI crowd would still be there...

but in certain situations, the GUI *can* be faster/easier.

As I get older and wiser, I've tried to give up being dogmatic about
stuff (except for emacs, sorry. well... even there I will fire up
vi/vim for quick simple edits, but anything bigger... emacs...) and
just use the best tool *I* know of for the job. And hope I can be
flexible to learn newer, better tools.

[r***@anl.gov]

Post by Doug Breshears
GUI vs Command Line

I really don't think that is flame-war worthy unless you are talking
to sales critters about features.. ;-) The chant was "SMIT happens!"
For those that remember, I'm sorry for restarting you nightmares.

Another comment war is text vs html in email.

--Gene